Hymns and Spiritual Songs
for the Little Flock
– Part 1: A History

One of the major themes of the ministry, particularly since about 1900, is how God has made Himself known in the Economy – as Father, Son and Holy Spirit –

• and following the Lord's Supper, the suited response to the Lord Jesus and the Spirit and in approach to God in worship.

• It has been said that "the approach is to be equal to the revelation", 'Ministry by J. Taylor', 47: 206-227.

• This cannot be appreciated apart from recognizing that, as partaking of the Supper, we are identified with the full import of the Lord's death as "our point of severance from this scene".
  • Hymn 192 – 1973, Miss Frances J. Elwood.

  • See Romans 6: 1-11; 1 Corinthians 10: 16-22; 11: 26-32; Ephesians 1: 17 – 2: 7; 3: 20-21; Hebrews 2: 12.

• Only then can we enter experientially into the privilege of being with Christ in the heavenly and spiritual sphere where He leads the praises.

The documents in Part Two testify to the great care and effort that have gone into successive revisions.

• From the 1932 revision onwards, all the hymns suitable for assembly worship, and almost all others added, have been composed by brothers and sisters whose hearts have been affected by the ministry.

• The extensive efforts put forth both in the selection of tunes and in original compositions are also noteworthy.

• Despite several sorrowful divisions, the continual refinement and development of the Hymn Book reflects the influence of light received from the Scriptures.

• The 1932 and 1951 revisions are specially notable, being made during a relatively long time of peace.

The 1932 Revisers

Group Working on the 1951 Index

The privately produced 1993 supplement is not connected, in any way, with the patrons or publishers of the 1973 edition.

• The supplement restores many additional hymns, usually in their latest form.

The purpose of this account is to preserve the history of the Hymn Book

• particularly for younger brethren – with whom I have the privilege of walking – who do not have access to documents now long out of print,

• as well as for other brethren who may have a sincere and legitimate interest.

May the Blessed Spirit use this history to promote a better acquaintance with, and increased appreciation of, the hymns

• in view of a wider and more intelligent use in the service of God – and to His glory "in the assembly in Christ Jesus" – in this waiting time.

G.A.R.

* Re "some hymn books which were in common use": The 2nd edition in 1893 of JND's 'Spiritual Songs' mentions the 2nd and 3rd editions in 1836 and 1837 of 'The Christian Hymn Book' and the 1838 'Hymns for the Poor of the Flock', which also had an 1842 edition. Both books had JND's "Hark! ten thousand voices crying", the present hymn no. 14.

After consideration, I determined to give my judgment by this attempt at a book more suited for the present need than any I know of.

• It rests with others to decide how far I have or have not succeeded. I may add that my rules while working were these:

1. Retouch as little as possible, and with as light a hand as possible. But, allow to remain
2. no false, no faulty, no defective doctrine cost what it might;
3. no dispensational incongruities;
4. no want of keeping in the truth or truths stated;
5. no ambiguities between that which is and that which is not true;
6. and, Add as many new hymns as the Lord might enable me.

I now leave my labour with the Lord.

G.V.W.

Three things are needed for a hymn book;

1. a basis of truth and sound doctrine;

2. something, at least, of the spirit of poetry, though not poetry itself, which is objectionable, as merely the spirit and imagination of man;

3. and thirdly, the most difficult to find of all, that experimental acquaintance with truth in the affections which enables a person to make his hymn – if led of God to compose one – the vehicle, in sustained thought and language, of practical grace and truth which sets the soul in communion with Christ, and rises even to the Father, and yet this in such sort that it is not mere individual experience, which, for assembly worship, is out of place.
   • In a word, the Father's love, and Christ developed in the soul's affections, rising in praise back again to its source. God alone can give this so as to meet the wants of an assembly.

Like assembly prayer, it must not rise too completely beyond the state of the assembly, yet must reach up to God, and raise the assembly's affections up to Him,

• so that what He is in grace developed in the affections of the soul should be jointly proclaimed.
  • It is not mere wants that would be a hymn for a prayer meeting.

• A basis of truth has been spoken of, or, to speak more justly, the truth; this is evidently fundamentally necessary, but much more is.

• There is based on this truth a large sphere of scriptural thoughts, feelings, experiences, and hopes, in which the soul moves, which ought to be scriptural.

Now in a vast number of hymns there is real piety in the affections, but connected with statements which may not touch any great foundational truth, but are unscriptural,

• and thus the best affections are connected with unscriptural thoughts, and this is a very real injury to the soul.

• Thus, suppose uncertainty as to salvation, the absence of the spirit of adoption, a bright hope of being in glory when we die; these are merely taken as instances, for it applies to very many points,
  • and souls are quite angry at losing a hymn which their piety has enjoyed, but which has connected their hopes and affections with what is not scriptural.

• Many such have been eliminated heretofore from the collection, but there remained still something to do.

Hymns should be simple, full of Christ, and the Father's love, unaffected, and in some measure elevated, so as not to be mere prose.

• The singer must be there, but the singer associated in his thoughts with God filled from on high; yet not individualise himself and leave the assembly behind him.

• Many most sweet hymns are too individual, too experimental, for an assembly.

• In this collection an Appendix is therefore added, where there may be as beautiful hymns, but the assembly has been less thought of.

• Where possible, the hymns for the assembly are in the plural.

• There are hymns which suit prayer meetings, home devotion, even the gospel; though there the difficulty is very great.

• Abstractedly you are making people sing as having certain feelings, and then preaching to them because they have not.

But in actual Christendom things are not so sharply defined, and there are hidden souls and hidden wants which the hymn may give expression to, and set a soul free or make it apprehend God's love more effectually than the sermon;

• still there is very great danger of widespread delusion and loose apprehension of sin and grace, and the difficulty is very real.

• You may often find the loudest singers where the conscience is least reached.

Only about fifteen hymns were at first excluded by the Editor, but others pruned with a far more unsparing hand they had not to get good ones to fill their places.

• Some forty or more have been struck out, but many of those that have not maintained their place in the first part will be found in the Appendix.

• Their places have been supplied from searching a great many collections, but which, for reasons stated above, furnished but few that could be introduced.

• A good number are original, from various quarters, these have been submitted to different brethren before being put in.

• Many authors may be comforted by knowing their hymns were sometimes very nice, but not suited to an assembly of saints; several have gone into the Appendix, not necessarily as inferior, but of a different character.

• Many hymns have been corrected on the principles referred to. These corrections were also shewn to different brethren, but it is not expected that everyone will be satisfied, certainly more might have been, and may be, done.

• The Editor has done the best he could, and, though none, unless he undertake it, can feel the difficulty, he believes the Lord has been with him.

• More may be added to the Appendix by further research, or original, but this will require time.

For convenience, the number of the hymns which remain are the same, new hymns having been substituted for the excluded ones, with the exception of 148 [now 341], and 84 [now 264].

Finally is added what perhaps should have come first; the great principle in selecting and correcting has been that

• there should be nothing in the hymns for the assembly but what was the expression of, or at least consistent with the Christian's conscious place in Christ before the Father.

The reader will kindly remark that there are changes necessitated by putting "we" for "I", which, but for that, there would have been no occasion for.

The book is commended to Him who alone gives songs in the night [ Job 35: 10 ], trusting that a hymn book, already the best known to the Editor, may be still more useful to brethren;

• sure that the Spirit, who alone can indite a genuine hymn, can alone enable it to be sung aright.

J.N.D.

It should be remembered with regard to alterations in some of the hymns retained, that the object in compiling such a hymn book as the present,

• is not to give a collection of original hymns,

• but to provide, as far as may be, utterances suited for singing in the assembly.

• Other collections supply hymns of piety for private use and comfort.

An Appendix has been dispensed with, and the numbers of the hymns now follow consecutively; those more suited for prayer or reading meetings will still be found at the end of the book.

The book is still 'The Little Flock Hymn Book', that is,

• it is a continuation, so far as grace has been given, of the labours of GVW and JND, and in no sense a new collection of hymns.

• The notice of GVW as to the edition of 1856, taken from the cover of 'The Present Testimony', December 1857, is here given,
  • so that those who use it may have before them, with Mr. Darby's preface – save that part which refers to the arrangement of the edition of 1881 – a complete history of the book.

T.H.R.

There has been no departure from the principles of revision which have guided previous editors of this book.

• The compiler's account of the 1856 hymn book sets forth those principles in a clear and concise manner.

• It has therefore been retained as introductory to the present edition, along with that part of JND's preface to the 1881 book which has permanent spiritual value.

• Certain parts of the 1881 preface, and the preface to 1903 book have been omitted as only referring to those particular editions.

• The number of hymns suitable for use in gospel meetings has been increased, to meet the wish of many for a wider selection of hymns of this character.

• And, for convenience of reference, all the gospel hymns are now placed together in the latter part of the book, and arranged in alphabetical order. [This was reversed in 1951.]

The words 'For the Little Flock' are retained on the title - page to distinguish this hymn book from others; they are not used in any narrower sense than attaches to the Lord's words to His disciples in Luke 12: 32.

[ unsigned ]

Many brothers and sisters have devotedly helped in the service of examining, correcting and selecting from the many compositions made available.

A new exercise having arisen that the brethren should have a universal hymn book which would truly express the truth of Ephesians 4: 4-6;

• "There is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all",

• the compiler has sought for available material from hymns written in various languages.

• The intention is to translate this book, as far as possible, into all the languages used in the service of God, by those walking in separation according to 2 Timothy 2: 21.

Much thought has also entered into the provision of hymns which express all the glorious features of this service.

In any corrections made to old and new hymns the compiler has sought to follow the principles given in Ecclesiastes 12: 9-10,

• "he pondered, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs. The Preacher sought to find out acceptable words; and that which is written is upright, words of truth".

Those helping in the work have been very conscious of the great volume of prayer which has gone up from thousands of them that love God, and desire to "worship Him in spirit and truth", John 4: 24.

A.E.M.

The 1951 revision was marked by the inclusion of many new hymns which bore evidence of what had been wrought in the souls of the saints, by the Spirit of God,

Many changes were made in the 1951 and 1962 editions, and whilst some additions were made, a number of well-known and well-loved hymns were excluded, for various reasons.

• It is in response to a widespread desire for some of these to be replaced, that the present version comes. Where appropriate a return is made to the original compositions of the authors.

R.S.

Extract from an undated letter of Robert Stott in answer to various criticisms.

Beloved Brother, No, I was not surprised to receive a letter from you – the only surprise was that you should think that this would frighten me! You may be surprised that it did not antagonise me either! I appreciated the spirit of your letter, but not its tenor. It saddens – yes – because of its lofty approach. It disappoints because it contains little evidence of apparent contrition for past involvements. "Our faces in the dust" was written by a broken-hearted JND. Nevertheless I will reply. You have embarked on a subjective analysis of the 1973 hymn book minus knowledge of the facts. It needs no defence save to state that its contents embody all the precious principles and truths of the recovery since the inception of the book in 1856 and embraces the best of every edition since. This is endorsed by the thousands of its satisfied users, making a further reprinting necessary. A perusal of the papers enclosed [not available] written before it was published will clearly explain its objectives. The desire for the return of many discarded hymns required that some had to go to make way, not necesarily dues to any fault in them. You have seriously erred in attributing motives where none existed. You may have forgotten that I was one of the four editors of the 1962 book. I was present at all sessions and at the final selection of the hymns when the cardinal error was made of inviting — and — to 'help' in the assessment. I witnessed on that occasion a demonstration of vindictiveness against authors they disliked that it has ever been my misfortune to behold. This caused me later to resolve that I would avoid any element of vindictiveness in any future proceedings in which I might be involved. Your implication that the four hymns mentioned in your No. 1 were excluded because we reject the principles of separation is the very antithesis of the truth. The fact that at least twelve hymns remain upholding this principle completely negates this suggestion. Most of the hymns you list in No. 2 were part of a wave of manufactured hymns which reached tidal proportions as the collection neared completion. 179 was rejected by all four editors and only survived because of ——'s intervention on his son's behalf. 375 was not thought to be up to the quality of 333 (73) on which it is modelled. After the division of 1970 it became quite inconsistent to sing the words of 301, "all merge in perfect oneness", that came from the writer who was the chief architect in this country of what was destructively divisive. 359 was sent over to this country in prose form. I finally versified it but never felt happy about it being a spontaneous production. That you suggest that the eight hymns you list in No. 4 were removed because of "lack of appreciation of the wonderful truth of union with Christ" – especially when at least nine other such hymns are retained in the book – does you the greatest discredit. I wonder at your boldness in thus presuming to judge of persons who are in no way inferior to you in their appreciation of the precious ministries of JT, FER and JBS. We take comfort in Paul's assertion in 1 Corinthians 4: 4, "He that examines me is the Lord". The 1962 preface was writen by Mr. A. J. Gardiner and although I am one of the four brothers mentioned in its opening paragraph, I could not conscientiously include it in the 1973 edition because the 1962 book bore too heavily the impress of the dictatorship of ——, which led in some quarters for it to be known as the "spite hymn book". I marvel at your attempts to underwrite and approve of 383. Apart from the two errors that were in the original version, most find it difficult to sing "remove from us unfaithfulness and fear", coming as it does from the pen of a man who instilled more than any other these very things into the hearts of the saints. In order to arrive at a judgment you only require to refer to some of his blasphemous and obscene utterances at Aberdeen and compare them with this hymn. Then read what James says in chapter 3: 10-11, "Out of the same mouth goes forth blessing and cursing. It is not right my brethren that these things should be thus. Does the fountain out of the same opening pour forth sweet and bitter?" Does this really mean nothing to you? …

G.A.R.

There is then the usual copyright notice.

This additional information referring to a subsequent edition also supplied by Robert Munster, October 25, 2007. [Cover - ] (Enlarged Edition) MELODIES AND CHANTS ADAPTED TO "Hymns for the 'Little Flock'." As Revised 1903.

[Frontispiece - as quoted previously, except referring to 1903 instead of 1881.]

Melodies & Chants adapted to "Hymns for the Little Flock."
As revised 1903. With Supplement added.

"And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God, and the prisoners heard them." - Acts xvi. 25.

"I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." 1 Cor. xiv. 15.

LONDON: G. MORRISH, 20, PATERNOSTER SQUARE, E.C.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Preface -] NOTICE.

• A Supplement is added, which, it is hoped, will make the book of still further use as a companion to the revised Hymn-book.

December, 1904

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Indexes - ]

No. 1. - INDEX TO "HYMNS FOR THE LITTLE FLOCK,"

No. 2. - ALPHABETICAL INDEX

No. 3. - METRICAL INDEX

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Tunes 1-258]

DOUBLE CHANTS (Suitable for C.M. or S.M.)

[Tunes 259-276]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

SUPPLEMENT TO "MELODIES AND CHANTS." FOR USE
WITH THE "Hymns for the Little Flock," AS REVISED 1903.
London: G. MORRISH, 20 PATERNOSTER SQUARE, E.C.

The desire has been to collect together tunes which have been, from time to time, brought into use, and have become familiar, and also to introduce a certain amount of freshness by gathering tunes from other sources, new and old. Some of the tunes are manifestly more suited for home than for public use. In this, as in all else, the Lord's gracious guidance will be looked for and obtained.

In addition to several copyright tunes which have been very kindly offered and accepted for use in this Supplement, permission has been granted for the following to be inserted. Should there be any others which have been inadvertently printed without such permission, the matter shall, if desired, be rectified in a future edition:

[list of copyright tunes]

December, 1904 [This date is also missing in the maroon cover edition]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Tunes 277-388]

389 - "Thou are my joy, Lord Jesus", H.K.B.
390 - "Jesus, enthroned in heav'nly glory", T.W.]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The layout of the maroon edition is substantially the same, apart from, as mentioned, removal of references to the 1903 hymn book, index 1 being revised for the 1881 book, and the former supplement preface being moved to the front in place of the original one. The cover reads

MELODIES AND CHANTS ADAPTED TO

"Hymns for the 'Little Flock'." (1881 Edition)

Robert Munster.

• It is earnestly hoped that it may be of some service to a few of those who love the Lord Jesus and result in a better knowledge of suitable tunes,

• so that the collective service of praise to God may be continued in a living way without the hindrance that sometimes arises from lack of order and unity in singing.

• That work, containing as it does many well-known tunes that are not found elsewhere, remains of permanent value and has been of great assistance in the making of the present compilation.

1. To provide, for home use, a book that would contain words as well as tunes, each hymn being printed below or opposite the appropriate tune or tunes.

2. To ensure that tunes would be available for all the new hymns in the hymn book which has just been revised.

3. To endeavour to set to each hymn the tune, or tunes, most suitable to the words, without using the same tune twice.

4. To collect in one volume all the best tunes, of a suitable character, in use in various parts – often very locally – with a view to their being more generally known.

5. To add an Appendix containing hymns – and tunes – suitable for individual or family use and for children, thereby obviating the necessity for having a number of different books in the house, perhaps for the sake of two or three hymns in each.

6. To produce the book on a voluntary basis, at the lowest possible price, so as to bring it within the reach of all.

• It should, however, be clearly understood that this allocation of tunes to hymns, though very careful consideration has been given to it,
  • is merely on the line of suggestion and imposes no obligation on anyone to use a particular tune to a certain hymn.

• But it was felt that there is, perhaps, a need for more recognition of the suitability of a tune to a hymn.

• It should help to convey the spirit and character of the hymn, and correspond with the words in rhythm as well as metre.

• For instance, a triumphant hymn needs a triumphant tune, and so forth.

• The idea of a tune being 'wedded' to a hymn has been advocated by many, and where accepted greatly helps in remembering both hymns and tunes and in securing mutuality in singing.

• It is hoped that, in course of time, if the Lord tarries, this book may afford real help on these lines, as the tunes are learned.

1. To reject poor tunes or those too rich in harmony, etc., to be easily memorized for singing in meetings where no instrumental music is used.
   • Also to refuse those having secular associations – such as 'Prospect' and 'Resignation' – or being in other ways unsuitable to the dignity of the service of God.

2. To use as many as possible of those tunes that have been specially composed for the hymns in this book, provided that they be moderately good and suitable.

3. To include all the most important old tunes and such others as might be obtainable from the well-known books, particularly those that could be easily memorized owing to their simplicity of melody, harmony and rhythm.

• Alterations have been made wherever thought necessary or desirable, and harmonies have been carefully revised, as far as may be, according to recognized rules.

• and, last but not least, providing funds for initial costs, etc., so that the book might be sold at a low figure, is very gratefully acknowledged.

• No names need be mentioned as the friends who have thus helped would prefer to receive their reward in a coming day from the Lord, who takes notice of the smallest service done in His name.

• The former are available for any use in the interests of Christ and no copyright would be claimed for them.

• The proper acknowledgment of these, and the names of the copyright owners, are printed below the respective tunes.

• The greatest care has been exercised to recognize copyright where it existed, and if, through oversight, there has been any failure to acknowledge it, the omission would be much regretted and will be rectified in any future edition there may be.

• But it may be said here that several brothers accepted responsibility for the revision and were helped in the work by many others.

• It was decided by them not to include any hymns for which copyright was claimed.

• Therefore, as far as is known, no acknowledgments are necessary. The 'Prefatory Note to the 1932 Revision' concludes:
  • "For convenience of reference, all the gospel hymns are now placed together in the latter part of the book, and arranged in alphabetical order. The words 'For the Little Flock' are retained on the title-page to distinguish this hymn book from others; they are not used in any narrower sense than attaches to the Lord's words to His disciples in Luke 12: 32".

• The actual or approximate – 'c.' – date of composition is given in some cases, in others the lifetime of the composer or author – e.g., 1800-1882 – or, where this was not known, the date of birth – 'b.' – or death – 'd.'.

• Many tunes are known under two or three different names and these alternative names are given, for convenience of reference, in the Indexes of Tunes and Metres.

• The tunes have not been chosen merely for the sake of music but for their adaptability to the hymns.

• What the living God looks for is that living praise which flows from the heart in the power of the Holy Spirit. Tunes with a measure of music are only necessary in

• order that the praise might be vocally expressed in a united, orderly and suitable manner and with right spiritual feelings.

C. T. Lambert

March, 1932.

• In like manner it has been in mind, in compiling this Tune Book, that the best use of the music can only be made in dependence upon the Holy Spirit.

• In this way tunes most suitable to the words at any particular time will be selected and raised.

  The above is an allusion to "allocating tunes to hymns" as was first done in the preceding 1932 tune book.

• while individual judgment varies, it is hoped that the present collection will, in a general way, express their wishes.

• Many hymn tunes from French, German and Scandinavian sources have also been examined and several have been included.

• The labours then of the compiler of that book, supplemented as they have been by much help from him at this time, have provided the foundations for this collection.

• Many others have devotedly helped at all stages of the work.

G.H.S.P.

• giving wider circulation to certain tunes which have already become well known and are regarded as suitable for use in assembly service and on other occasions,

• and opportunity has been taken to include also certain other tunes which, as they are made use of, may be found equally serviceable.

• The Supplement is the outcome of the labours of many who, in a co-perative way, have devoted themselves to completing this task.

  Jan. 24, 2007: Robert Munster writes: "You may be interested to know that my father, Arthur [d. 1991], was heavily involved in putting the 1965 Little Flock Tune Book Supplement together, being responsible for editing and harmonising the music".

A.J.G.,  R.S.,  A.J.E.W.

J.M.,  A.H.B.,  F.B.F.

Scripture affords much material for that, beginning with the books of Moses and then passing on to the Psalms. There are the same number of the books of Moses as there are of the Psalms – five in each case.

• Moses had to do with the Pentateuch and David had to do with the Psalms, and David is said to be the sweet psalmist of Israel.

• There is good reason to bring up this whole matter now in view of the liberty that has been shown in recent times and in view of the end of the dispensation, so that we might go up on the proper note when the Lord comes, and that there should be readiness for it.

Rem. You would look for some expression in our hymns that would answer to the Spirit and the bride saying "Come".

J.T. Just so. The idea of which divine Person is speaking is to be kept in mind. How often it is mentioned in Scripture as to which Person speaks; as, for instance, in the word,

• "As says the Holy Spirit", Hebrews 3: 7.

Ques. Does Scripture indicate that the Spirit is the principal Speaker at the present time?

J.T. I think so, but He is at all times.

• "Every scripture is divinely inspired", which would refer to the Spirit, "and profitable for teaching".

• Then there is the question of the poetic features, which might be particularly used in song; because we have the idea of song, as it says,
  • "I will sing with the spirit, but I will sing also with the understanding", 1 Corinthians 14: 15.

• The understanding is, perhaps, where we have been defective; because much fault has entered into hymns generally, and one of the things in mind in a revision would be to make corrections wherever this might be needed.

Rem. It would, of course, be in mind to correct any defects brought to our notice.

J.T. Then too we would have new hymns which would be suitable for the present time.

A.W.R. Is it of interest to note that where we have a reference to departure from the truth, it says,

• "But the Spirit speaks expressly", 1 Timothy 4: 1?

J.T. Just so. I wish to bring out the thought as to discerning the divine Person who speaks, and when we have a series of meetings – what we call three-day meetings – whether the ministry stands the test of Scripture.

W.M.B. I would like to ask what bearing the speaking of divine Persons to us has on our response to them, especially in song.

J.T. I should think chiefly to convey intelligence. The word is,

• "I will sing with the spirit, but I will sing also with the understanding".

• So that an editor of a magazine – as you are – would be much concerned as to the accuracy of everything he receives for publication.

W.M.B. I was thinking rather of the purpose of this meeting, as to how it would bear upon the Person to whom the song is addressed.

J.T. We have no hymns to the Holy Spirit directly, so far as I know. They have them in the systems around us, but we have none, and it seems that the Lord now is raising the matter.

• The Spirit is God Himself, and God as the Supreme One ought to be spoken to.

• But the first thing to see is that when we have a series of meetings for ministry there should be some exercise amongst us as to the accuracy of the ministry, that we do not allow it to pass if it is not correct. How do you look on things yourself in your own service?

W.M.B. I seek to follow that up in dependence on the Lord and the Spirit.

C.H. Whilst the ministry must be correct – the reference to the "understanding" bearing upon that– would the word, "I will sing with the spirit" involve the feelings of joy that may be in the heart? The understanding is a question of another faculty that balances the man.

A.H. In view of the truth we are now enjoying of the Spirit Himself speaking, do you think we should be concerned to make response to Him personally?

J.T. That is right. There are no hymns addressed directly to the Spirit in our present book, and I think that the main defect lies there.

H.F.N. Would the word in Ephesians come in here, after it says,

• "But be filled with the Spirit", it goes on to say, "speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs" Ephesians 5: 18-19?

J.T. That is directly a reference to it. It says, "psalms and hymns and spiritual songs".

• The Psalms would refer to experience and therefore the book of Psalms is largely used in the epistle to the Hebrews, especially in the first chapter. The book of the Psalms is almost entirely used in that chapter, showing how experience must enter into response to the ministry.

H.F.N. In Colossians, too, the psalms, hymns and spiritual songs are the outcome of the word of the Christ dwelling in you richly.

J.T. Quite so. These are very good remarks. We should note where these things are mentioned in the Scriptures themselves.

Ques. Are the divine Persons distinguished for us in that scripture in Ephesians 5? It says,

• "But be filled with the Spirit";

• then "chanting with your heart to the Lord",

• and then "giving thanks at all times for all things to him who is God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ".

• We get all three Persons mentioned and it is in connection with singing.

J.T. In the service of song on the first day of the week, the question would be whether we have got material to answer, in the service, to the ministry we have had during the previous week.

• Can we put our thoughts and exercises into song in the service that may appear on the first day of the week? So in 1 Corinthians 14 it says,
  • "I will sing with the spirit, but I will sing also with the understanding".

• I would say that the understanding is the main thought there. It is important because there is so much error in singing, and the danger comes in when ideas are being put together in poetry.

A.J.G. The Lord said as to the Comforter,

• "He shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak";

• so that, from one point of view, it is the Spirit's voice but from another point of view it is the Father or the Lord. How would that enter into what we are saying?

J.T. You understand that that is all that the Spirit says?

A.J.G. I had assumed that the Spirit was here in that relatively subordinate capacity and therefore did not speak from Himself.

J.T. Now we have to compare spiritual things with spiritual, and the Lord speaks of Himself in a similar way in John 12 where He says:

• "For I have not spoken from myself, but the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what I should say and what I should speak".

• Now both these passages – one referring to the Spirit and the other to the Lord Jesus – have the same force, that is, they do not speak from themselves. It refers back to the Father and we have to understand that and look into the matter and understand what it means.

A.J.G. That is why l was raising the matter.

J.S.E. Have we to come to this point of distinction? There is what each of the Persons of the Godhead may say to us, but we have to be able to distinguish which One of them is speaking.

• Have we not been taught that each of the Persons of the Godhead is now to be known and appreciated by us as an Object in Himself to be addressed, and can we limit the thought of singing to two of those Persons and leave the other out?

• May I ask further as to a remark in one of the three-day meetings in America as to the word, "The Lord is near", and you inferred that it might represent the nearness of the Spirit to us in lordship.

J.T. I would rather say that the Lord there is the Lord Jesus.

• The Spirit is not said to be made Lord, but Christ is said to be made Lord.

• The Father, of course, is Lord but is not said to be made Lord, because He would have to do it Himself.

• I only refer to that for accuracy and when it says in Philippians 4, "The Lord is near", I think it is the Lord Jesus.

P.L. Referring to the Pentateuch, have we a distinctive song to God in the song of Moses in Exodus 15; then a distinctive song to the Lord in Numbers 10, "Rise up, Lord", and then a distinctive song to the Spirit in Numbers 21?

J.T. Quite so. And another thing that might be added is that divine Persons Themselves are prior to anything that we have in the Scriptures.

• The economy in which they are now known is in time. It is a matter of time, but the actual condition of divine Persons is inscrutable and involves that They are all equal.

• We cannot just say that in revelation divine Persons are now on the same level, for They are not; They were at one time, as far as we can see, but in the economy which has come in in time the Father comes first, and the Son comes second, and the Spirit comes third.

• That is clearly the order, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The brethren might well take account of that in view of the thought in mind of improving our hymn book.

• There should be understanding in what we say in the morning meeting – so-called. We are to understand what we are singing and why we are singing it.

E.L.M. I would like to ask whether you would be happy in the thought that in the blessing which follows on the truth of the nazarite, in Numbers 6, the three Persons each appear under the title Jehovah.

• It says, "Jehovah bless thee, and keep thee; Jehovah make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee; Jehovah lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace", Numbers 6: 24-26.

J.T. That refers to Jehovah only. There was no other name given then to divine Persons.

E.L.M. I was thinking that the Jesus of the New Testament is the Jehovah of the Old, and wondered whether we could extend the thought that that title attaches to the Spirit equally, and that it attaches to all divine Persons?

J.T. I do not think you would be supported in saying that. The Old Testament had only Jehovah in mind and that name is given there expressly.

• The Spirit, of course, was spoken of as well; God by His Spirit garnished the heavens; but I think, as a matter of fact, the name Jehovah is only given incidentally in the New Testament.

• In the Old Testament the name Jehovah is given as the specific name of the divine Person then speaking.

E.L.M. I was thinking of Luke 2; the word 'Lord' there, according to the footnote, is Jehovah.

J.T. The footnote is not exactly Scripture. I do not think it is intended in the New Testament to bring forward the names employed in the Old.

Rem. In the economy each divine Person has His own distinctive name.

J.T. That is what I thought. The names, Father, Son and Spirit, did not exist in Old Testament times, therefore it is a matter of the economy, and we have to go by what is given to us in the New Testament.

Rem. When we come to the New Testament we have the fulness of Christianity involving the names by which God is now known.

Rem. As to the matter of understanding in singing, I believe the brethren generally would like help as to the Spirit being in an objective position.

• We have generally thought of the Father and the Son as presented objectively to be worshipped but we hardly brought the Spirit into that. I think that is where help would be appreciated.

J.T. I think so too; and help will come, I believe, in the conversation we are engaged in now.

Ques. Do we begin with the thought that the Spirit is God and an Object of worship?

J.T. Exactly. The spirit of a man is the man himself, and that is the thought in the Spirit of God.

Rem. Deity is as full in the Spirit as in the Father or the Son or in the three Persons.

J.T. Quite so.

W.C. Is it largely a matter of understanding in the hearts and souls of the brethren, based upon the truth of the equality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son, that these desires to praise and worship the Holy Spirit are springing up amongst us without any definite scripture indicating that we should do so?

J.T. Well, there are definite scriptures, I think; for instance, Numbers 21.

W.C. I was thinking of the New Testament.

J.T. In the New Testament we have persons who address the Spirit. Peter did, according to Acts 10. The context would show that the actual Speaker there is the Spirit, and then that Peter spoke to Him.

• That is a direct statement in the Scriptures of address being to the Spirit.

W.C. I was thinking more definitely of actual praise and worship. You would extend it to that, praise and worship being due to the Spirit?

J.T. I certainly would.

P.L. Divine honours cannot be rightly ascribed to any One of the Persons of the Godhead short of praise.

J.T. So our hymn No. 126 does that. That hymn was accepted by J.N.D.

No. 126 in the 1932 Hymn Book (composed by J. Montgomery):

Praise we to the Father give,
God in whom we move and live;
Children's praise He loves to hear,
Children's songs delight His ear.

Praise we to the Firstborn bring,
Christ the Prophet, Priest, and King;
Glad we raise our sweetest strain
To the Lamb that once was slain.

Praises for the Holy Ghost
Sent from heav'n at Pentecost;
'Tis through Him that now we live,
And the precious truth receive.

Blest our portion, thus to be
Glorying in the Trinity;
For the gospel from above,
For the word that "God is love".

Rem. It was written by one of the Moravian brethren.

J.T. It was included in the 1856 Hymn Book, was it not?

Rem. Just so, in its present form.

F.V.W. In the 1932 revision the word in Colossians, "singing with grace in your hearts to God" was thought to refer to the Father. Are you suggesting that may allude to the Spirit as well?

J.T. "God" would include all – the three Persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It is specific there, and "God" is a word covering the three Persons – the Deity, as we call It.

Ques. Would there be justification in that verse for singing to the Spirit?

J.T. Only in the sense that He is God.

W.B.H. Does the end of Ephesians 3 run in line with that? It says,

• "But to him that is able to do far exceedingly above all which we ask or think, according to the power which works in us, to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages".

• Is the word "Him" there in the last verse – "to him be glory" – inclusive of all the divine Persons?

J.T. "To him" – that is God. It is God as ordinarily used in Scripture, as in Genesis 1, "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". It is God Himself as supreme.

• In the New Testament we have the truth as to the three Persons, and in Ephesians 3: 21 it is God Himself – the three Persons.

W.B.H. I wondered if the word "him" in that sense would not be a basis upon which to render to the Spirit also what is due to Him?

J.T. I do not think we should go outside the ordinary usage of Scripture. If Scripture says "God" it is generally the three Persons, but we must keep all Scripture in mind and there is the word in 1 Corinthians 8

• "to us there is one God, the Father",

• which has to be understood. But when it says "God" it is normally the three Persons. In 1 Corinthians 8 the Spirit is left out, but the Father is specifically mentioned.

• If God is mentioned it is the three Persons, and in Matthew 28 the one name covers the three Persons.

A.J.G. Whilst we need certain hymns addressed specifically to the Spirit, should we have also a few more hymns addressed to God?

J.T. Quite so; though what we want now is hymns addressed to the Spirit, as such.

W.S.S. In one of Mr. Raven's letters, as brethren will generally know, he writes on the assumption that the Spirit is not viewed objectively and says if He were viewed objectively then He must be worshipped. I thought it was a helpful remark in view of what we understand of the truth now.

J.T. I do not see why the early brethren did not take on the thought of the Spirit of God as we have now. It was evidently not brought out at that time. I have no doubt, however, at all that if Mr. Raven had what we have now he would fully agree with it, and Mr. Darby as well. I fully believe that.

Rem. Peter in the Acts knew who was speaking to him, and answered that Person and no one else.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Practically all the references to the Spirit in the hymn book are incidental; is that sufficient?

J.T. It is not sufficient. Scripture warrants hymns addressed directly to the Spirit, hence the present occasion.

Rem. It would seem there is a real need for some adjustment in the book.

J.T. Quite so.

F.E.S. With reference to the thought of God covering all three divine Persons, should all three or more than one be addressed in one particular hymn?

J.T. I think so. In hymn No. 126 the three divine Persons are mentioned. There has been a change made in that hymn for it originally read, 'Glory to the Holy Ghost'.

F.E.S. In some of our hymns when there is a change over from addressing the Lord to addressing the Father we find the use of them tends to bring in a little confusion.

J.T. I do not know. There is much confusion but I am not sure if there is any confusion on that point.

F.E.S. Sometimes hymn No. 209 is given out and it may not be opportune to use the whole hymn.

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No. 209 in the 1932 Hymn Book:

O Lord, it is Thyself; none, none but Thee
Could so call forth response from every heart;
The love that stood the test of Calv'ry's tree
Doth to our longing souls fresh joy impart.

Thou speakest, Lord, of Him Thou hast revealed,
Thy Father, whom Thou lov'st – His glory, Thine.
Thou, His eternal joy, Thyself didst yield
To bring to pass His thoughts of love divine.

Thy heart, our God, made known – all, all is told!
The glory of Thy love, all time before,
He to our raptured hearts doth now unfold,
And moves our souls to worship and adore.

O circle of affections all divine,
The foretaste of eternity's bright scene,
Where all the glories of His love shall shine
In everlasting joy and peace serene!

---

J.T. Hymns need to be carefully given out and at times certain verses only can be given out so as to avoid confusion.

C.H. In regard to the matter of understanding, I wondered whether we have not only to bear in mind that the Spirit is a divine Person, but also the particular place He has taken in the economy, and would not that enter into the intelligence of the brethren in using the hymns?

• There is the place the Spirit has in the economy and in the service of God, and His service can be referred to, not exactly in an incidental way, but in an accessory way. Would that govern the use of hymns addressed to the Spirit?

• We would be governed by the part the Spirit has in the service where He draws attention to the other divine Persons.

E.C.M. Would what has been said make us more selective in giving out hymns or verses of hymns?

J.T. Quite so, and that is constantly done. Certain verses are given out which are applicable to a certain time of the meeting.

Eu.R. It has been looked upon as retrogressive, after we have passed to the Father, in the service, to go back to the Lord. What about the Spirit? Would it be any retrogression to speak to the Spirit after having spoken to the Lord Jesus?

J.T. The same thing should apply as applies to the Lord Jesus, because the Spirit takes the third place in the economy; the Son takes second place.

• The Father has the last part of the service and at that point the Son is not addressed and the Spirit would not be, because He takes the third place in the economy. The Spirit would take the same kind of place in the service as the Lord does, whereas the Father is supreme.

Eu.R. Would the Spirit come in particularly in the Supper in the character of the nameless servant who brings the bride to Isaac?

J.T. Quite so. It is quite right to use the types as seen in that incident.

W.M.B. I would like to raise a question with a view to getting help. We are all happy and clear as to the worship of the Spirit as a divine Person.

• Would the place He has taken in the economy and the absence of any direct doxology to Him in the New Testament restrain us in any way in our approach to Him?

J.T. If you have one scripture to support a thought, that is enough, for the Scripture cannot be broken.

• The authority of Scripture is involved and therefore if we have one scripture to support any thought or principle it is quite right to use it.

A.J.G. Would what safeguards the position be the fact that the service of God can only be rightly carried on in the liberty and intelligence that the Spirit affords and if we are subject He will not lead us to do anything out of place?

J.T. The Spirit of God is God and He permeates everything that refers to the service of God.

A.H. May I enquire about the expression in Ephesians 3

• "Strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man"?

• How would that come into the service? Would it be in order to address that blessed Person at the particular juncture of the meeting when we are before the Father?

J.T. He would come in in relation to whatever is referred to.

A.H. I would like to be clear that it would not be retrogression to refer to the Spirit as the service proceeds. Mr. Roberts referred to the thought of retrogression, but if I am addressing the Father, and the Spirit gives me to feel that He is strengthening me inwardly for that response, I could suitably speak to Him at that juncture?

J.T. We must remember another thing. We sometimes have the Spirit referred to as the Spirit and not as the Spirit of God or the Spirit of the Father, or the Spirit of Christ, but just as the Spirit. In that way He is viewed as a divine Person and takes third place in the economy – not second place or first place – and we must recognise that.

A.H. I fully recognise that but I was concerned as to the service. It is an exercise in the minds of many if we have addressed the Father on Lord's day morning whether it is in order to turn aside and thank the Holy Spirit for His inward support.

J.T. I would say it would be as the Spirit of the Father or as the Spirit of adoption in the last part of the service.

Eu.R. You think we might speak to Him as the Spirit of adoption at that time?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. It would be with a view to augmenting the service.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. In connection with the composing of hymns to the Spirit, would it be in keeping, or out of keeping, to employ names that are typical, or would the more holy language be to address Him in a personal way?

J.T. Typical teaching is quite right, if we understand it. The word says:

• "The Lord will give thee understanding in all things".

• Anything that the Lord gives us in the way of understanding would be proper to use at the given time.

Ques. You would be free about a hymn addressed wholly to the Spirit?

J.T. Yes; that is what we are hoping to have. We have not one now.

Ques. Assuming that we had one, at what moment of the service would it be in order to give it out?

J.T. I would say in the first part of the service.

H.F.N. If a hymn has been addressed to the Lord, would there be liberty to address the Spirit after that?

J.T. Certainly, but in the latter part of the meeting it would be as the Spirit of adoption or the Spirit of sonship, I would say. It says the Father is bringing many sons to glory.

Ques. Is it in your mind that a hymn such as Mr. Nunnerley has in mind should be on that line?

J.T. Quite so; even if it is in type.

A.P.B. Speaking again of the Spirit, just as the Spirit and not as the Spirit of adoption or the Spirit of Christ, would that have any particular place in the service?

J.T. It would be in keeping with His place in the economy – He has third place in the economy and it would be in keeping with that.

A.P.B. It would then have to come in early in the meeting?

J.T. Yes.

Ques. How early would you say?

J.T. As a divine Person, there is liberty to address the Spirit at any time, but we must bear in mind that when the title "the Spirit" is used, it has in mind His place in the economy and that is a third place. We should not therefore address Him thus once we have moved to the Father.

Rem. You mean if we have begun to address the Father He would be in our minds as the Spirit of adoption but prior to that it would be suitable to have a worshipful hymn to the Spirit.

J.T. Certainly.

Ques. Could we do it immediately after the Supper?

J.T. I would say before or after the Supper but before we deal with the Father. The Father has the main place in the economy. It is a question of what divine Persons have decided to have and the incarnation is the turning point in everything.

Ques. Would hymns to the Spirit be proper for the opening of a meeting?

J.T. Quite so; for this meeting or at any time.

P.L. In ministry we would call upon the Comforter's help, and the title "Spirit of truth" would serve there.

W.H. Would the setting of the Spirit as in 2 Corinthians 3 come in immediately after the Supper?

J.T. Quite so; but there is one thing that bears upon that, and that is that the only One said to be made Lord is Christ.

A.M. Has the Spirit a special place in the matter of change, such as the change in the service from the Lord to the Father?

J.T. He comes in happily there.

Rem. In Ephesians 2 we have:

• "For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father".

• The Spirit comes in there in connection with access to the Father.

Ques. In a hymn addressed to the Father might there be verses addressed to the Spirit as the Spirit of adoption?

J.T. That would be quite in order. No. 209 usually has to be divided and that illustrates what you say.

Ques. It would not be oscillation when addressing a hymn to the Father to use verses addressed to the Spirit as the Spirit of adoption?

J.T. It would be quite all right.

A.J.G. You have often pointed out that the Supper is the Lord's supper; it is not the Spirit's Supper nor the Father's. Do I understand you to say that it would be in order to commence the meeting with a hymn to the Spirit?

J.T. It would be quite suitable, if we are led that way. He is God. God is thinking of us and has us in mind, and He is valuing what our thoughts are at any time.

J.S.E. Would it all depend on our measure of spirituality at the time?

J.T. Quite so.

J.S.E. If the volume of hymns can be enriched, would it not provide more scope for the spiritual to draw upon?

J.T. That is what we are aiming at. We are here to that end, to improve the service of song.

C.H. Both in the composition of new hymns and in their use, the spirit and the understanding of the believer is intended to have a part, so that things will be maintained in true balance.

J.T. Sisters, of course, cannot take part audibly, and that has to be recognised and is taken care of by other means. Nevertheless, the service of God requires that sisters are sons.

• We have to think of them as sons because they are such, and you have to come back to this, that ultimately the feminine idea is seen in the assembly.

Eu.R. As to hymn No. 126, could we have further hymns of that kind; one verse to the Father, another to the Son and another to the Holy Spirit? Would it be suitable towards the close of the occasion as recognising the deity of those Persons for such a hymn to be sung?

J.T. That hymn has often been sung.

Eu.R. We can then carry the three Persons in our minds in the one hymn?

J.T. We cannot make divine Persons too far away from us. They are thinking of us and the word comes in, "Of him are ye in Christ Jesus".

• We belong to the divine circle, and divine Persons are thinking of us accordingly and what we do is in their minds of importance.